Ladies & Gentlemen: The 2D Fighting Thread

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Ladies & Gentlemen: The 2D Fighting Thread

Postby Gaijin Punch » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:22 pm

Okay, I got a small set of DC games recently that had a couple of 2D fighters in them (Guilty Gear X & Capcom vs. SNK 2). I was going to break them out but my stick converter is screwed. Not going to bother w/ a DC controller. So, they went on the For sale list cheap and went out the door. But, I plan on getting something for the PS2 to hold me over until Arcana Heart comes out. The main problem is now I'm competing in that fucking shmups tournament and I'd really like to leave an impressionable score. I'd much rather a good game get chosen though.

Okay, so basically, before I give a real rough look at SVC2 & GGX and slap descriptions on them, anyone want to throw out some info? I recall Recap saying GG's resolution is raped. I thought the series was all 31khz. Wrong? What about SVC2? Can't imagine a CPS2 game w/ proper resolution on the DC.

A user has asked me to pick up the Vampire PS2 collection and I accidentally got an extra one. So, I might give that a whirl although my time is proably better spent on something a bit less vampire. Open to suggestions.

Anyways, spit it out. I know there's a mountain of information in you guys' heads.
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Postby SuperDeadite » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:59 pm

I recently picked up a Neo Geo AES with Shin Samurai Spirits, KoF '02, and Last Blade 2. I love Last Blade 2, one of the best fighting games I've ever played. Its beautiful to watch and plays great! ;)

If I remember correctly the DC port is kinda crappy, with missing animation, slowdown, and I think it was upscaled. I have no experience with the PS2 version, but I hear its not much better. Looks like AES or MVS is only way to go with this one.
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Postby CIT Seven Force » Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:31 pm

The DC Port of Gekka No Kenshi 2 (Last Blade 2) has scanlines and the graphics are faithful except for the missing heat effect. The main problem is the sound synch issue. I agree, it's one of SNK's best games ever.

GG on DC should look fine through VGA, but maybe there's something I don't know about? I've only played the series on PS2, and those come with a 480p option.

CvS2 is a Naomi game, btw. It's one of the games I spent the most money on in the arcades. I think it's great, but some people really hate it.

I really love the Vampire series as well, but forget about the PS2 release, just get Vampire Saviour for Saturn and you should be good to go.

Some of the other PS2 releases that come to mind:

- Street Fighter III Third Strike - This is as good as Capcom gets. Only problem I have with it is some extremely dorky looking low-tier characters. If you have no ambition at getting competitive at this game you should get the DC release for display reasons (it has the 240p option), if you care about arcade-perfect combo timing get the PS2 version.

- Guilty Gear XX Accent Core - The most recent of the GGs. Generally GG players completely stop playing the older entries as soon as a new one gets released.

- Hokuto No Ken - Sweet graphics and plays okay, but maybe you won't like it as much if you're not into the manga.

- Melty Blood: Act Cadenza - This is really fun to play, but you'll have to get over the graphics (lowres sprites on extremely sparse highres backgrounds)

- The King of Fighters XI - Easily the best of SNK's Atomiswave games, and one of the best in the KoF series. This is the PS2 fighter I have spent the most time playing.

- Neo Geo Battle Coliseum - This one plays great as well, despite the usual SNK Atomiswave graphics issues (recycled lowres sprites on highres backgrounds)

- Capcom Fighting Jam - Total shit. Avoid.

- Neo Geo rereleases, such as Gekka No Kenshi 1&2, Garou, KoF rereleases, Fuun Supercombo, Ryuuko No Ken collection, etc - These all have upscaled and filtered graphics, just get them on Neo Geo. The only Neo Geo game I know of that has 240p on PS2 is Samurai Spirits Zero. Not a bad game, but not the best in the series, unfortunately.

That's all for now, might think of more later.

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Postby Ganelon » Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:44 pm

CVS2: Everything is pretty much arcade perfect. Top players have no objections playing it on DC or PS2. Both don't have the arcade speed down pat though. And the PS2 loses anti-aliasing, which makes its sprites look really jagged. Great game, and I hear it still gets quite a bit of playtime in Japan.

Vampire Darkstalkers Collection for PS2 is very accurate gameplay-wise but the upscaling looks nasty with better connections (same with SF Fighters Generation). Surprisingly, it actually looks better then Vampire Chronicle for the DC, which appears disorientingly blurry. For all these games, the resolution is squeezed rather than cut like the SS versions. But does anyone still play the games seriously?

NBC is a not-entirely-faithful port of the arcade with lengthy loading times. Good game but not for competitive play

GGX: Nobody plays it anymore. Since that time, there's been 4 new installments GGXX, #R, /, and AC. I can't see you playing these games though...

I like ST but there isn't a single port of it that works for everyone.

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Re: Ladies & Gentlemen: The 2D Fighting Thread

Postby Recap » Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:54 pm

Gaijin Punch wrote:I recall Recap saying GG's resolution is raped.


Me?


The only Neo Geo game I know of that has 240p on PS2 is Samurai Spirits Zero.


It really does!?




NBC is a not-entirely-faithful port of the arcade


Can you elaborate?




I have little else to add here besides that I don't think the PS2 is the right choice for anyone seriously interested in 2D fighting games, despite popular belief. That is, unless you put GGX series above the rest (and PS2 Accent Core has some issues, anyhow, so the Wii is a better option even here). You have Hokuto no Ken and The Rumble Fish, but they're not remotely comparable to Capcom's masterpieces (most of them on the SS and the DC).

CVS2 is a very bad joke for anyone who loves Capcom's unique 2D graphic style, in my opinion. And has an odd feel to it most likely due to the graphic display.

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Re: Ladies & Gentlemen: The 2D Fighting Thread

Postby Gaijin Punch » Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:20 pm

Recap wrote:
Gaijin Punch wrote:I recall Recap saying GG's resolution is raped.


Me?


Oops... looks like I was wrong.

And yeah, I kinda figured nobody played the old stuff. I think the Capcom games are the only fighting games that enjoy that priviledge.
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Re: Ladies & Gentlemen: The 2D Fighting Thread

Postby Ganelon » Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:40 pm

Recap wrote:
NBC is a not-entirely-faithful port of the arcade


Can you elaborate?


Immediately noticeable from videos is that the victory screen looks different and that there's no pause/silence right before a match begins in the arcade version.

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Re: Ladies & Gentlemen: The 2D Fighting Thread

Postby CIT Seven Force » Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:18 am

Recap wrote:
The only Neo Geo game I know of that has 240p on PS2 is Samurai Spirits Zero.


It really does!?


Yes, it really does. I have the game here.
I know, it seems crazy, right? Almost like some sort of bizarre accident that they didn't screw up the display.


Gaijin Punch wrote:And yeah, I kinda figured nobody played the old stuff. I think the Capcom games are the only fighting games that enjoy that priviledge.


Some of the old SNK games still get played competitively as well, specifically Garou, Last Blade 2, KoF 98 & 02 and Samurai Spirits Amakusa Kourin.

The Capcom stuff that still gets played is basically 3rd Strike, SF Zero 3, CvS2, MvC2, Hyper SFII.

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Re: Ladies & Gentlemen: The 2D Fighting Thread

Postby Recap » Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:36 am

Ganelon wrote:
Recap wrote:
NBC is a not-entirely-faithful port of the arcade


Can you elaborate?


Immediately noticeable from videos is that the victory screen looks different and that there's no pause/silence right before a match begins in the arcade version.


I understand. Thanks. Sounds like pretty minor, if you ask me.




Yes, it really does. I have the game here.
I know, it seems crazy, right? Almost like some sort of bizarre accident that they didn't screw up the display
.

Crazy, indeed. I believe it again talks about how many different developers have worked for SNK doing the porting labors.

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Postby Gaijin Punch » Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:47 pm

Okay, I splurged and got Marvel vs. Capcom 2... which was obviously a huge mistake not only on my part, but everyone's part that made it. Okay... next.... guess I'll just wait for Arcana Heart.
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Postby Black_Tiger » Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:46 pm

Guilty Gear X looked great to me through VGA. I don't know if its supposed to look any better, but I didn't notice anything bad about it on its own.

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Postby Greatsaintlouis » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:24 pm

Gaijin Punch wrote:Okay, I splurged and got Marvel vs. Capcom 2... which was obviously a huge mistake not only on my part, but everyone's part that made it. Okay... next.... guess I'll just wait for Arcana Heart.


No MVSC2 love, huh? That's too bad, it's definitely one of my favorite fighters.

I'm not sure exactly how the PS2 port goes, but I've got Melty Blood Act Cadenza Ver. B on my PC (a PC port of the arcade upgrade of the PS2 version, I believe, with possibly a few extra enhancements) and really do enjoy it, though I've honestly been following the series from the first doujin release. You've mentioned before that the ultra-low-res sprites are a bit of an eyesore, but the gameplay has a speed to it that at times makes the Guilty Gear series feel a bit sluggish.

Maybe you can explain Arcana Heart a bit to me? I gave it a go once in Game Magma but didn't really catch on to any of the gameplay gimmicks beyond the tired QCF, QCB, D-F-DF etc. fighting game mainstays. I'm interested in picking up the PS2 release at some point but I also feel like a chump if I don't know much about a game beyond the typical genre conventions.

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Postby Gaijin Punch » Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:30 pm

You've mentioned before that the ultra-low-res sprites are a bit of an eyesore,


That's what MVC2 suffers from, plus really ugly 3D backgrounds. So, double whammy. The engine looked fun though, unfortunately.

Maybe you can explain Arcana Heart a bit to me?


You're much better off reading up on it on some webpage. :)
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Postby SuperDeadite » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:10 am

I've been playing Matrimelee on the NeoGeo. Its not the best fighter out there, but the crazy characters are quite fun to mess around with. Its really the music that keeps me playing though. Songs with lyrics on a cartridge? HELL YEAH! ;)
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Postby Kaede » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:21 am

Greatsaintlouis wrote:Maybe you can explain Arcana Heart a bit to me? I gave it a go once in Game Magma but didn't really catch on to any of the gameplay gimmicks beyond the tired QCF, QCB, D-F-DF etc. fighting game mainstays. I'm interested in picking up the PS2 release at some point but I also feel like a chump if I don't know much about a game beyond the typical genre conventions.


Yeah I actually walked away from the machine before the end of my credit on this game as I had no idea what was going on and it seemed rather slow and boring. Very weird game to play if you are only used to the typical Capcom/SNK fighting games. Melty Blood was the same, although I somehow managed to get a lot further. One thing I will say is that the backgrounds in these games are really bland, such a shame given how gorgeous the main sprites are and how well theyare animated. :(

In any case, Icycalm loves this game so I'm sure it's only a matter of time before he puts a review up over at www.insomnia.ac
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Postby icycalm » Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:25 pm

old games journalism:
http://insomnia.ac/reviews/custom/arcanaheart/

vs.

new games journalism:
http://www.actionbutton.net/?p=190

take your pick lol
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Postby Greatsaintlouis » Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:04 am

Thanks! I'll read both, but I'll start with the 'old games' style first. The so-called 'new games journalism' is interesting in concept and especially the possibility of turning game writing into a bit more of a literary form, but the actual execution frequently leaves a bad taste in my mouth with heavy-handed egotism, 'indier-than-thou' posturing and other assorted wankery. That's a bit of a side tangent, I suppose...

Kaede, not that it will help much in the long run but there's a demo version of the PC port of MBAC available here (click the download link on the menu and then the button below the system requirements). While it won't do much to explain things, it will let you get a feel for the game mechanics. There's quite a bit borrowed from the likes of Guilty Gear as the game has a fair variety of defensive moves like parries, recoveries from being knocked ass-over-teakettle, and even a button mashing gimmick to lessen the amount of damage taken from a combo. Much as I hate to direct people there, Gamefaqs has a few comprehensive guides and move lists that actually aren't bad; there's a 102k guide to the PS2 version that can be found in the arcade listing for Act Cadenza (for some reason) and there's also a reasonable guide to Ver. B for the PC; both of these ought to work in the arcade as the latest version of the game contains revisions ported from the PS2 version, and Ver. B for Windows is essentially a straight port from the latest arcade edition. If that's not confusing I don't know what is.

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Postby JoshF » Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:21 am

A nuts-and-bolts technical explanation is beyond the scope of this review
:D

Ha, yes nテシ game journalism does suck and their cult leader Tim Rogers is the worst of the worst. GSL hits the nail on the head, it's all about posturing and being part of an exclusive movement of fake relevance.

To add to his point, the premise itself is flawed because they see the "old" style (you know, the ones that discuss the game, mechanics, etc.) as subjective while their style is based on tacking their subjective emotions and boring life experiences onto a game, or likely launching into a critical analysis of the sandwich they ate while playing they game and tacking on a sentence about the title screen ("talking about how a game plays is so IGN".) I support the opposition to corporate gaming journalism but this shit is just radicalism without the substance, and doesn't even address the issues with corporate gaming journalism because it's so fucking pointless!

Hang this post on a wall and call it art. :P (new posting)
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Postby Macaw » Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:36 am

icycalm wrote:new games journalism:
http://www.actionbutton.net/?p=190


The first comment at the bottom of that page says it all.
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Postby ZebraAirforce » Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:22 am

Hey guys. The other day I was in calss and sneezed. Snot shot everwhere, and a huge glob of it flew back at me like a disgusting bungie jumper. It went straight in my eye and as I ran out of the room crying I heard the hot girl in my class say something about "pussy bitches." It was so humiliating I ditched my last class and went home to eat ice cream and cry while I watched Mystery Science Theater 3000. Oh yeah, my friend got Arcana Heart and we tried it out and it was petty good I guess.
3/5
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Postby Greatsaintlouis » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:37 am

You forgot to end a few simple statements with question marks as though you're asking the audience for confirmation and/or to read your mind. I.e. "My friend just got Arcana Heart and it was pretty good I guess?"

So I just finished reading the Insomnia.ac writeup about Arcana Heart, which of course told me much more about the game mechanics than the other one did. I think I'm definitely going to have to put some more time into it at the local arcade, and really consider picking up the PS2 port while I'm at it. I also had no clue that Hori was making one of their Real Arcade Pro sticks to commemorate the game; wonder what the odds are of picking THAT up in Sofmap.

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Postby Macaw » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:44 am

Greatsaintlouis wrote:I also had no clue that Hori was making one of their Real Arcade Pro sticks to commemorate the game


Unfortunately it doesn't seem to have any autofire functions though.
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Postby Greatsaintlouis » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:45 am

Hopefully that means it'll be a bit cheaper than the standard RAP. Though I'm guessing the thing'll probably still hit around 8000 yen. Here's hoping the excessive pink will put some buyers off and I'll be able to scrounge a used one somewhere.

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Postby ZebraAirforce » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:48 am

That's how I got my gameboy advance ;)
"It's like doing speed... It sounds fun b/c everyone is doing it, and then you're like, 'what the fuck!?'"

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Postby Kaede » Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:15 pm

Greatsaintlouis wrote:Kaede, not that it will help much in the long run but there's a demo version of the PC port of MBAC available here (click the download link on the menu and then the button below the system requirements)....


Greatsaintlouis, thanks very much for all the info. Think I'll have a play around with theMelty Blood demo and see if I can get the hang of it.

icycalm wrote:old games journalism:
http://insomnia.ac/reviews/custom/arcanaheart/


Icycalm, I really enjoyed your review of Arcana Heart and it's easy to see why you are so enthusiastic about the game. Clearly I didn't spend enough time with it and after reading your review I understand a lot more what the game is about. Definitely need to give it another try. Only problem with fighting games these days is that there's no arcade/fighting game scene in the UK outside of London's Casino arcade and none of my friends enjoy these sorts of games (It's Winning Eleven or nothing).

Also (sorry to go off at a tangent), anyone know where I can download some expert Garou - MOTW replays? Is there anywhere you can buy DVD's of this game?

Thanks
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