[AC] Raiden IV

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[AC] Raiden IV

Postby Gaijin Punch » Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:30 pm

Okay, never a big Raiden fan. Raiden III looked awful. Fighters Jet is about the only one I've put any decent amount of time in. While I hate the fast bullets, it's kind of fun chaining bonuses.

Anyways, I've looked at this one for a whopping 2 minutes. But, from what I saw it didn't look that bad. Some of the bosses were actually detailed and the backgrounds were not typical Type-X boxes with low res textures applied to them.

Comments?
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Re: [AC] Raiden IV

Postby Recap » Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:27 pm

Gaijin Punch wrote:Comments?


Same as four years ago: Polygons killed this genre.






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Postby sven666 » Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:01 pm

the type-x can do good.. i for one am definetly getting this kit once it drops a little in price :)

i like "raiden" as well and 4 looks more like the continuation of the series we wanted in 3 but didnt get.
ofcourse everyone really wants a fighters 3 i guess :P
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Re: [AC] Raiden IV

Postby Gaijin Punch » Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:06 pm

Recap wrote:Same as four years ago: Polygons killed this genre.
.


How much of it have you seen? It is leaps and bounds above RIII. It is no Ikaruga, but it you cannot dismiss it as crap on visuals alone.

And I know you like your graphics recap, but a boring but pretty 2D game is still useless... how will I know how good it looks if I can't play it b/c it sucks so bad? (eg anything by Psikyo).
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Re: [AC] Raiden IV

Postby Recap » Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:38 pm

Gaijin Punch wrote:How much of it have you seen? It is leaps and bounds above RIII. It is no Ikaruga, but it you cannot dismiss it as crap on visuals alone.


Not much, to be honest (enough to me, anyway), but yep, we indeed can. C'mon. The genre is completely stuck. They have been repeating the very same formulas once and again for more than 10 years now, with very, very few exceptions. Not a bad thing per se, but even if 10-years-old games look (and sound) miles better than today's iterations, what's the f*cking point.




And I know you like your graphics recap, but a boring but pretty 2D game is still useless...


No, it's not. You know I know you like your Odin Sphere, GP.



how will I know how good it looks if I can't play it b/c it sucks so bad? (eg anything by Psikyo).


Psikyo games don't "suck"!

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Postby Gaijin Punch » Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:58 pm

While Odin Sphere was repetitive, it was still fun. I never play those games for story either, as the story is always insulting at best.

Funny you say Psikyo games don't suck, but you comment that the genre has been stuck for 10 years. Psikyo is probably the worst offender of shoving the same stuff down peoples throats... and it's not even good stuff. Fast bullets, biggish hitbox, lame scoring mechanic (if one at all), etc. I've only seen one stage of Raiden IV, but I can already tell you it ranks higher than either Gunbird, Sengoku Ace/Blade, Dragon Blaze, etc. Gameplay trumps graphics. How long would you date a 6'3" super model if she couldn't fuck right?
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Postby icycalm » Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:38 pm

I am sorry but I will have to comment on this.

Whether a girl can "fuck right" or not is irrelevant if she is attractive. It's not as if it's that big of a deal to show her what you want anyways.

And anyway, as far as I am concerned all she has to do is just sit there and take it. ;)

And now back to Raiden IV...
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Postby sven666 » Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:43 pm

Gaijin Punch wrote:. How long would you date a 6'3" super model if she couldn't fuck right?


..you mean if she had her pussy on sideways on her hip??

id still hit it.
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Postby Recap » Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:07 am

Gaijin Punch wrote:Funny you say Psikyo games don't suck, but you comment that the genre has been stuck for 10 years. Psikyo is probably the worst offender of shoving the same stuff down peoples throats...


But I also said it wasn't a bad thing "per se".



and it's not even good stuff. Fast bullets, biggish hitbox, lame scoring mechanic (if one at all), etc.


The only thing which really pisses me off from Psikyo is the stupid random stage order. Anyhow, I'm not saying they're the best games out there either. Your words sound like if you couldn't enjoy anything but Cave, though.



I've only seen one stage of Raiden IV, but I can already tell you it ranks higher than either Gunbird, Sengoku Ace/Blade, Dragon Blaze, etc.


I'd love to believe that, but as I told you, I like most of Psikyo stuff, so I'm not sure if we could agree there at the end. I'll try to not totally ignore the game from now on, anyhow.

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Postby Gaijin Punch » Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:22 am

Well, the most recent shooting games I've attacked and beaten are Battle Bakraid (cleared it...not that hard, actually) and Raiden Fighters Jet. I've even bought the Ibara PCB so I'm warming up to that style of play. The RJF is somewhat Psikyo-ish, but done well. I just think the play style gets really old, really fast.

My comment on girls fucking well as an analogy. If they look great, that's all fine and dandy but eventually even that is not going make it worth it. How many great looking RPGs are there out there that I'll never bother w/ b/c they bore me to tears?

I'm not saying RIV is the coming of the messiah...but that it was pretty surprising.
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Postby CIT Seven Force » Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:55 am

Yeah, Raiden IV is definitely a real improvement over Raiden III. And they brought back the Plasma Laser!

However I don't think the graphics look better than Under Defeat. Maybe roughly the same level.

Also, the main Problem is that, while III and IV play very much like Raiden games, they still lag behind Raiden DX in terms of interesting play mechanics, scoring secrets, etc.
That style of play was continued with the Raiden Fighters series, but unfortunately that seems to have been an evolutionary dead end. :(

I think Psikyo games are pretty dull as well. The formulaic nature of their games is almost like a running gag - except that ultimately the joke is on the consumer. :roll:

Sengoku Blade is great (the graphics playing a huge part there), and Zero Gunner 2 is the most fun and exiting one to play. It just feels so fresh compared to all their other games. I feel if they had done that type of game in more timeless 2D graphics it would be a real contender for the top spot among all shooting games.


EDIT:

Gaijin Punch wrote:Well, the most recent shooting games I've attacked and beaten are Battle Bakraid


Man, of all Raizing shooters why did you choose Bakraid? Easily their worst game, imo. (Well, second worst if you count 1944)

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Postby icycalm » Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:57 pm

I also think that Zero Gunner 2 is Psikyo's best. In fact it's on my top 3 shmups ever list.

But I don't think it could or should have been done in 2D. What with all the rotating, it would be quite hard to animate, don't you think?

I think that game is perfect as it is. Well, perhaps it would be better if the stages were a bit longer and if there was no random stage order.

But still. Awesome game.
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Postby CIT Seven Force » Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:40 pm

icycalm wrote:But I don't think it could or should have been done in 2D. What with all the rotating, it would be quite hard to animate, don't you think?


Yeah, maybe. I don't know, have you ever played Guardian Force? It's sprite based, but basically plays like Zero Gunner 2 (same kind of rotation mechanics). The game's not that good, but I feel if somebody had given it the tight controls and item collection system of Zero Gunner 2, it could have been really brilliant. Psikyo would've come up with much more inspired graphics anyway. Having said that, Zero Gunner 2's graphics still look pretty fine today.

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Postby Gaijin Punch » Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:35 pm

All of Cave's games feature some type of rotating sprite. It's not hard. They're all computer generated anyway. It could look goofy in the end, but it's still possible.
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Postby Recap » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:27 am

Sprite rotation is quite a elementary feature. Even the SFC could do it.






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Postby dcharlie » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:54 am

Sprite rotation is quite a elementary feature. Even the SFC could do it.


well, the SNES did need a bit of help ;)
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Re: [AC] Raiden IV

Postby ZebraAirforce » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:12 am

Gaijin Punch wrote:Okay, never a big Raiden fan. Raiden III looked awful. Fighters Jet is about the only one I've put any decent amount of time in. While I hate the fast bullets, it's kind of fun chaining bonuses.

Anyways, I've looked at this one for a whopping 2 minutes. But, from what I saw it didn't look that bad. Some of the bosses were actually detailed and the backgrounds were not typical Type-X boxes with low res textures applied to them.

Comments?
Well, I didn't think Raiden III was terrible, but alot of things irked me. Namely:
Yellow bullets and yellow explosions
Super slow ship
Boring scoring system

The best thing about the game is how fun it is for 2 players -- There really aren't alot of STGs designed for cooperative play.

Anyway, if RIV can improve on some of those things I mentioned (especially the bullet visibility!) I'm sure I could sit down and really enjoy it.
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Postby icycalm » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:57 pm

Yeah, sprite rotation is of course possible, but would it look anywhere near as smooth as in Zero Gunner 2? I don't think so.

ZebraAirforce: I think Raiden IV improves on all the areas you mentioned except the scoring system. It's a fun game.
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Postby Recap » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:49 pm

icycalm wrote:Yeah, sprite rotation is of course possible, but would it look anywhere near as smooth as in Zero Gunner 2? I don't think so.


It depends on what you mean with "smooth", I guess. Framerate-wise, yeah, sprite rotation (and I mean "real-time") can be ("is") as smooth as "3D-model rotation". ZG2's graphics are not just about "rotating" stuff, nevertheless, but about full 3D movement. Maybe that's why you "can't" imagine this game in 2D.

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Postby JoshF » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:49 pm

I think he means rotating a static sprite wouldn't look at good as a rotating 3D model or animating the rotation.

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Postby dcharlie » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:18 pm

Framerate-wise, yeah, sprite rotation (and I mean "real-time") can be ("is") as smooth as "3D-model rotation".


the level of distortion you`d get from rotating a 2d sprite would look a little off putting i`d have thought.

Then again, maybe not as bad these days given most people would code it as a flat polygon textured shape and rotate that. :D

but yeah, you`d definitely get distortion of the image using "traditional" sprite rotation - significantly worse than rotating a 3d model.
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