Let's talking Raizing

Talk about all aspect of Japanese games.

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Let's talking Raizing

Postby Gaijin Punch » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:30 am

Anyone that knows more about Raizing than me care to explore some of the differences in the games?

From what little I know:

Garegga: Most painful
Bakraid: Most milking
Batrider: Most interesting? Differences between A & B please
Soukyuugurentai: Non-yagawa, not a hard 1CC?
Mahou Daisakusen: Most gimmicky (and a bad gimmick at that)

Feel free to share.
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Postby Macaw » Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:56 am

Garegga: Dark sci-fi theme. Superb graphics and insane level of detail throughout. Great music. Rediculously complex scoring. A milestone for arcade games.

Bakraid: Somewhat crappier graphics than other raizing games. Horrendously tricky score system which once understood is likely to repel most people from playing the game for score.

Batrider: Same ultra high level of graphics and stage layout and detail as Garegga, but with much more character thanks to a more apparent story, and also the pilot portraits and stuff. Similar scoring as Garegga but with the team aspect thrown in.

Soukyuugurentai: Yeah its non-Yagawa. Not sure how hard it is to clear haven't played it too much. Superb game though, its main appeal is definitely the incredible atmosphere and music. Similar to Taito games like G-Darius and Raystorm in that it feels incredibly dramatic and exciting to play through. Weaker as a scoring game, score system basically involves collecting lots of excess bombs.

Mahou Daisakusen: Most gimmicky? I dont know why you think that. Are you sure your not reffering to Great Mahou? Thats the 3rd one in the series with the treasure get score system. The original Mahou is more or less a very standard shooter, but has great graphics and superb stage designs.
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Postby SuperDeadite » Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:07 am

Souky is an easy clear if you control the rank. Meaning dodge those powerups! If you don't control the rank it gets extremely punishing towards the end. The style and pacing of the game are quite cool though, fun game.

I like Kingdom Grand Prix (Saturn one is the only version I've played). The racing is kind of fun. Most people fail to realize that you can speed up my simply holding down the fire button. Of course then you can't actually fire. :) Its a wacky game, but fun in spurts.
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Postby Gaijin Punch » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:24 am

I was referring to the whole racing thing as being a gimmick. Just seems a little silly to me (albeit different).
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Postby Macaw » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:58 am

Only the 2nd in the series 'Shippu' has the racing element...
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Postby Gaijin Punch » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:43 am

Macaw wrote:Only the 2nd in the series 'Shippu' has the racing element...


Ah, that'd be it. What the hell were they smoking.
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Postby Macaw » Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:06 am

Haha, I think its an awesome game. The racing element is hilariously awesome when your side by side with a rival vying for first place while shooting through a crazy stage.
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Postby Gaijin Punch » Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:18 pm

I guess it's good the same way B-movies are good.
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Postby Mappy » Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:40 pm

If I remeber correctly many Raizing memebers are former Compile staff..
this is most evident in their first title,
Mahodaisakusen.
It reminds me a lot of Aleste..the power up system, even the way the power-ups 'fall', some enemy patterns.
I think that it's really one of the best 'old style' shooters.
It was converted only for the X68000 and FM-Towns .. and I'm trying to find a copy of either =/

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Postby zinger » Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:07 pm

That reminds me, I'd really like to see the staff list for Mahou Daisakusen but there isn't one, even at the end of the second loop.

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Postby ZebraAirforce » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:25 pm

Armed Police Batrider:

Possibly the most complex shooter ever made. Tons of selectable ships, each with four different versions to try. Add to that the fact that each character has unique shot, option, and bomb properties and you have an insane amount of variance between ships.

Scoring is also very complex and hinges around a series of hidden bosses making appearances from previous Raizing games. A member of your team must be from the bosses game - and alive - in order for the boss to appear, so careful planning of stage routes and team selections is paramount to getting high scores. Suicides (and they are definitely necessary, not just for rank control, but for bombs) have to be planned somewhat ahead of time to make sure the correct characters are available to activate bosses.

To get even deeper still, many enemies have certain attacks that will cause them to be worth more points. For example, an enemy may be worth 1,000 or 2,000 points when defeated with the shot, but worth 30,000 when defeated with the aura attack. Levels are filled with targets like this, and it's incredibly demanding to try and destroy them with an aura attack or bomb as necessary.

Other than that, scores are based on milking bosses and bombing certain areas, like the flamingos in stage 1, or the escalators in the airport stage.

The A Board can only be played with 3 buttons, while the B Board has been adjusted so it can be played with two or three buttons. Basically, you had to press C to access some features, like versions of the characters and adjusting the options of the Garegga ships. In the B version you can push A + B to access the C version of a character, and you perform street fighter moves to change the garegga options (if C isn't available).
Garegga: Most painful
No way. Great Mahou Daisakusen / Dimahoo is definitely the most painful. The scoring system is one of the most demanding and restrictive I've ever seen and the difficulty is insane. If it didn't have such an obnoxious scoring system it would be an amazing game, but coupling the two together makes it too much for me.
Soukyuugurentai: Non-yagawa, not a hard 1CC?
If you let a few enemies fly offscreen without destroying them and avoid powering up then the rank should stay pretty lax. Getting a 100% destruction bonus or fully powering up will set it off.
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Postby ZebraAirforce » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:34 pm

Oh yeah, of the ones you don't have listed you should give Brave Blade a shot. The scoring system is like a spin off of Twinbee, where you hit medals into the air with your sword until they reach maximum value. It's a little weird, but worth a try for sure.

edit: actually, the game isn't that ugly.
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Postby CIT Seven Force » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:51 pm

As a Raizing fan I'll add my two cents.

What are Raizing shooters? I would say they are the arcade-ization of early 90s console shooters, such as Compile, Star Soldier series and Recca, combined with influences of several popular arcade shooter styles of the early 90s, mainly Toaplan, Taito and Seibu. In a nutshell, a sort of summation and expansion (through highly complex scoring systems) of several different stylistic trends.

Mahou Daisakusen - Seirei Senshi Spriggan on speed. The Compile influence is still very strong here, but there is also a strong Toaplan feel, with lots of fast aimed bullets. Great fantasy setting and very nice graphics, reasonably easy 1CC.

Shippuu Mahou Daisakusen - Sequel with slightly better graphics and sound and a ton of stages and characters, but the added racing gimmick is a somewhat problematic because it's a bit too random and frustrating at times (you need to win the Grandprix to get to the second loop). Still very easy to 1CC.

Soukyuugurentai - Quasi-sequel to Rayforce, it expands on the lock-on element. Compile influence can still be strongly felt here. The highest scoring and most rank-controlled way of playing the game requires that you never power up your main shot and only use lock-on. Extreme scoring involves not dying and collecting bombs in the tens (extremely difficult to survive for that long). Presentation is absolutely stunning - the graphics are among the best in 2D shooters period, and Hitoshi Sakimoto's soundtrack is second only to Radiant Silvergun. The whole game is dark, epic, and rather difficult to beat (even on low rank).

Battle Garegga - In my opinion a contender for best shooter of all time. At once incredibly addictive and extremely frustrating, the game is sort of the ultimate shmup S&M experience - pain and pleasure, beauty and death, all together as one. The scoring system is centered on collecting medals and on a series of "tricks", usually involving destroying a target a certain way, that each need to be learned separately. The graphics are ridiculously detailed, and the postindustrial style (as well as the scoring-through-bombing element) is a direct hommage to Taito's Gun Frontier. The game is long, dark and epic and extremely tough to beat. For me, Black Heart is the ultimate shooter boss. Manabu Namiki's soundtrack is unmatched in the genre to this day.

Armed Police Batrider - Similar to Battle Garegga, but with an American comicbook style, various play modes, colorful bullets and less severe rank, to make the game more accessible. All-round superb game, that is almost impossible not to like.

Battle Bakraid - Problematic sequel to Battle Garegga. A huge step back in terms of presentation, and the scoring system is totally changed - basically an extremely OCD-version of Raiden Fighters' bonus chaining system. Pulling of high scores will require ridiculous precision and constant suiciding to stall the counter and regain bombs. Extremely easy to beat if not playing for score. Fun fact: It's the only game listed only as "8ing".

1944: The Loop Master - I actually have no idea how much Raizing was invloved in this and in what areas. I fact I've hardly played this game at all.

Great Mahou Daisakusen - Absolutely gorgeous CPS2 finale to Raizing's main series. The scoring system takes anal retentiveness to new levels though, as you not only have an Ikaruga-type color switching element (you must kill certain enemies with either ice or fire to get certain items or destroy them more effectively) but the charge-level of your charge shot also influences what items you get. If you want to score high you need to complete sets of items (boots, shields, bread, etc), this means memorizing exactly when and where to charge the weapon how far, just to ensure you get every item in a set. Add to that that rank is tied directly to score - ouch!

Brave Blade - Raizing's final shooter, this time in rather blocky and sparse (but very clean) looking 3D. Scoring is a little bit like an accessible version of Daimahou, except this time you can change medals by hitting them with your sword, and yield more medals through proximity to enemies. No rank at all, but still rather long and challenging.


Final thought: I think Yagawa's role with Raizing is often overstated. He wasn't the only head behind Garegga, and only worked on two other Raizing games. I think it should be quite aparent that the so-called "Raizing style" was something developed by a whole group of people, of whom Yagawa was the one to continue the style with Cave.

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Postby Gaijin Punch » Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:57 pm

Nice input! Batrider is one I'm after now in PCB form, but not in any rush. Bakraid left my rather unimpressed, and there's no way I'm going to invest a lot of time in Garegga any time soon.
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Postby JoshF » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:09 am

CIT you should start reviewing again.

On Shippu, the racing feature wouldn't be a bad idea if it were possible to win. :)

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Postby zinger » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:24 am

Getting no 1 is easy, just stay at the top of the screen at all times and memorize where enemies show up so that you don't bump into them.

I'm surprised people don't like Bakraid much. I'd say it's in the Raizing top three, right after Garegga and Batrider. Scoring allows for improvisation and feels more free-form than DDP style chaining because of the suicide and bomb mechanics. Definetly a unique experience once you get into it. Definetly over the top. I love it!

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Postby ZebraAirforce » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:56 am

JoshF wrote:CIT you should start reviewing again.
The Garegga one was awesome, right?
"It's like doing speed... It sounds fun b/c everyone is doing it, and then you're like, 'what the fuck!?'"

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Postby LGB » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:10 pm

In before Golgo 13.

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Postby Greatsaintlouis » Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:21 am

Speak of Batrider, the game apparently got a Saturn release, but I have never once seen it, despite seeing supposedly rare titles like Radiant Silvergun, Dracula X, and Battle Garegga occupying the "rare and expensive shit" case of almost every gamestore I've gone to here. Does the Saturn release really exist, and how relatively uncommon is it? How's the conversion?

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Postby zinger » Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:44 am

It definitely does not exist.

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Postby sven666 » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:01 am

Greatsaintlouis wrote:Speak of Batrider, the game apparently got a Saturn release, but I have never once seen it, despite seeing supposedly rare titles like Radiant Silvergun, Dracula X, and Battle Garegga occupying the "rare and expensive shit" case of almost every gamestore I've gone to here. Does the Saturn release really exist, and how relatively uncommon is it? How's the conversion?


lolz :D thats the best made-up rumour ive heard in a looong time.

makes me want to do another mockup like my toaster-console on assembler :evil:


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