Totally awesome discussion about Technos' arcade beat-em-ups

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Postby Recap » Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:04 pm

What I'm mentioning is as far of "human perception" as the differentiations you implied in your previous post regarding emulation, guy.

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Postby CIT Seven Force » Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:37 pm

Actually it's pointless to discuss this, since my advice to buy the PCB was geared towards people like Gaijin Punch anyway. Why should they go through the trouble to mod AVGA drivers when they can just play the PCB?

And stop calling me "guy"! I'm the only person who gets to call people guy here.

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Postby Recap » Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:43 pm

citcelaid wrote:Actually it's pointless to discuss this, since my advice to buy the PCB was geared towards people like Gaijin Punch anyway. Why should they go through the trouble to mod AVGA drivers when they can just play the PCB?


Because PCBs are expensive, unstorable, hard to keep alive and a pain to change for playing?


Who are the "people like Gaijin Punch" anyway? The type that "buys to resell", you mean?

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Postby CIT Seven Force » Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:59 pm

Recap wrote:Because PCBs are expensive, unstorable, hard to keep alive and a pain to change for playing?


I'd hardly call those strong arguments, but all a matter of preference and circumstance I guess.


Who are the "people like Gaijin Punch" anyway?


Our members who regularly play PCBs.


Anyway, thanks for the heads up on Million.

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Postby Gaijin Punch » Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:13 pm

I play both. If it's a game I'm only moderately interested in, I'll play it in emulation if there are no painful differences between it and the PCB. If it has too many glitches, I'll buy the PCB. The last game I wanted to play but couldn't live with in MAME was Raiden Fighters Jet. Never got around to buying the PCB.
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Postby Recap » Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:13 pm

citcelaid wrote:
Recap wrote:Because PCBs are expensive, unstorable, hard to keep alive and a pain to change for playing?


I'd hardly call those strong arguments,


You're being a little silly tonite on purpose for whatever reason, right?



Who are the "people like Gaijin Punch" anyway?


Our members who regularly play PCBs.


Most have the splendorous misconceptions regarding emulation you do, I'm sure.

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Postby dcharlie » Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:17 pm

even for us (ex) PCB guys, it was always good to check things out on emulation first. I've had a few cases where my younger memories led me to buy some stinkers (Top Secret really is crap and Moon Cresta i have no idea how i managed to play this for so long in the past, also pretty turgid).

Who are the "people like Gaijin Punch" anyway? The type that "buys to resell", you mean?


maybe he was saying that to just exclude people who are basing their entire knowledge off rom collections?
Last edited by dcharlie on Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby RadiantSvgun » Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:56 pm

Back on track to Technos... Shadow Force... I don't really care for. Combatribes is a pretty cool cartoony beat em up. It feels really broken though.
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Postby Shou » Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:32 am

Recap wrote:Because PCBs are expensive, unstorable, hard to keep alive and a pain to change for playing?


More expensive than free you mean?

Quite frankly, PCBs are easy to store and swap out (PROTIP: that's why they came up with JAMMA and mobo/cart setups) unless you are talking about a deluxe game like R360 which you aren't doing much better with on an emu. As far as pricing goes, it comes in trends and depending upon region, you can pick up stuff for the same price as modern console releases. I remember when I bought Fever On for $60, Guwange for $80 and Esprade for $70, all JP releases.

Hard to keep alive is only relevant to HDD/battery games and if you're into buying PCBs, you probably have some level of technical skill so doing battery mods (EPROM flashes, CF mods, etc) should be within your ability or you can find someone to do it for you but I guess that costs money.
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Postby Recap » Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:55 am

More expensive than free you mean?


Sure. Though you can always buy any of those emulation-based compilations for consoles / PC where they put the exact game ROM files MAME has been using since the first day and extract them for other usages if you happen to have moral issues. but since all the PCB collectors I've known are 2nd-hand-market-only fellas, I guess that's not the case. ; )



Quite frankly, PCBs are easy to store


Evident space issues. Most need extra packaging / protection if you don't like direct dust on electronics. "Easy" my ass.



and swap out (PROTIP: that's why they came up with JAMMA and mobo/cart setups)


PROTIP: you need to also do per-game screen and controller adjustments which can give you headaches in some cases. And cartridge systems are the minority.



you can pick up stuff for the same price as modern console releases.


Dirty 2nd-hand material. I want my games (well, anything, actually) brand-new when I pay for them, thank you.



Hard to keep alive is only relevant to HDD/battery games ,


The amount of defective PCBs in the 2nd-hand market is astounding, no matter if they're battery-based. Just saying.



and if you're into buying PCBs you probably have some level of technical skill so doing battery mods (EPROM flashes, CF mods, etc) should be within your ability or you can find someone to do it for you but I guess that costs money.


= "hard to keep alive period". Thanks much.




Oh. Sorry for the derail, Macaw, but seems everybody becomes instanty fascinated by anything I say!

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Postby Gaijin Punch » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:23 am

PROTIP: you need to also do per-game screen and controller adjustments which can give you headaches in some cases.


No more than you have to for a console game. The only difference is that (recent) console games store these settings where PCBs usually don't... of course, I'm talking about the ones that allow you to actually change the config in the first place. Many don't, hence the thread here (somewhere).

As for the screen... that's why God made analogue knobs. I can adjust the screen for any of my PCBs quicker than it takes any disc-based game to boot.

Now as for storage and longevity, we can easily point the finger at cartridges and cartridge based systems. I've never once had to blow the dust out of my supergun or a PCB. A PCB wrapped in bubble wrap is about as easy to put back in the closet as an SFC game when trying to take it out/put it in the box w/o completely ripping it an new asshole.

Dirty 2nd-hand material. I want my games (well, anything, actually) brand-new when I pay for them, thank you.


Most gamers (ones that play old games anyway) don't give a shit about this though... at least don't demand their items new, obviously.
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Postby Recap » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:53 am

This was a PCB vs. ROMs comparison, just as a reminder.



Gaijin Punch wrote:
Dirty 2nd-hand material. I want my games (well, anything, actually) brand-new when I pay for them, thank you.


Most gamers (ones that play old games anyway) don't give a shit about this though... at least don't demand their items new, obviously.


Can't grasp what you're trying to imply there. Most "gamers" don't have moral issues or are just too dumb to realize how harmful the 2nd-hand market is for the industry, as I said. The dumbest will even feel offended when they get to know that you're using illegal ROMs while they just don't buy ANYTHING new. Like "I'm not buying a PS2 Espgaluda till I can get it cheap and used and can call it 'retro'". I myself have been buying brand new since the Spectrum days, so rarely had the problem to get what I needed in that condition.

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Postby sven666 » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:10 am

hehe :D

while buying 2nd hand games doesnt pay into the pocket of the actual developer it still fuels the industry.

since were on the subject, just look at all the PCB shops around japan/HK, none of them would exist if it wasent for the 2nd hand market, and if none of them existed there wouldnt be any home-arcades to the extent there is today and thusly harming the overall sales of arcade goods.

while ROMs on the other hand doesnt fuel anything since there is no exchange in funds whatsoever.
if your only option is to buy at a premium brand new or download for free the general public are way to ignorant and greedy not to choose the latter (hey most still are what with the fantastic 2nd hand market there is today), thats whats harmful to the industry.
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Postby Recap » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:15 am

Are you going to say something intelligent? Like ever? Since when shops are part of the industry? And you obviously missed the days when every Japanese game had a "No Resale" label and the industry (namely, "video-game companies") brought the subject to the courts.

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Postby Gaijin Punch » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:30 am

This was a PCB vs. ROMs comparison, just as a reminder.


Indeed, but you have console games too, no?

Since when shops are part of the industry?


Ever since consumers started to buy product X.


And you obviously missed the days when every Japanese game had a "No Resale" label and the industry (namely, "video-game companies") brought the subject to the courts.


And of course, the resalers won as there's no legal recourse for reselling something you've bought, regardless of who you are. And worth noting, 2nd hand stores were still thriving the first and last day those No Resale marks were put on games.

I can understand wanting to buy something new. I can understand wanting support the developer. But saying buying 2nd hand hinders the industry amazingly close-minded. There are economic limits, and not everyone is going to buy everything new. A handful of people are going to buy arcade stuff new.
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Postby sven666 » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:38 am

hehe thats what makes you so amusing is how your world is so black and white you cant even grasp how aftermarket sales are a big part of (almost any) industrys revenue.

for a really simple example (tho im sure you can still miss it by a mile) take a look at CAVE, a company that thrives based on the limited supply and demand situation of their merchandise, from a profit point of view they are playing the market really well, their strategy would be impossible without the 2nd hand market.
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Postby Recap » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:43 am

Gaijin Punch wrote:
This was a PCB vs. ROMs comparison, just as a reminder.


Indeed, but you have console games too, no?


Sure. What the hell does that have to do with the discussion?




Since when shops are part of the industry?


Ever since consumers started to buy product X.


Consumers aren't part of "the industry" either, just saying.




And you obviously missed the days when every Japanese game had a "No Resale" label and the industry (namely, "video-game companies") brought the subject to the courts.


And of course, the resalers won as there's no legal recourse for reselling something you've bought, regardless of who you are.


Did I say the opposite? I was talking about "morality", not "legality". If the industry (as a whole, no less) brought it to the courts, it was because the 2nd-hand market indeed is very harmful for it. Read twice before replying, seriously.




I can understand wanting to buy something new. I can understand wanting support the developer. But saying buying 2nd hand hinders the industry amazingly close-minded.


It's so obvious it was brought to courts, however. ; )



There are economic limits, and not everyone is going to buy everything new.


The industry invented the cheap re-editions for them, didn't it?

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Postby Gaijin Punch » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:53 am

Recap wrote:Sure. What the hell does that have to do with the discussion?


I was pointing out that why differentiate arcade games from console games. If you're going to argue against one, you'd have to for the other as well.

Consumers aren't part of "the industry" either, just saying.


Yes, clearly. O_o
They are the life blood.

Did I say the opposite? I was talking about "morality", not "legality". If the industry (as a whole, no less) brought it to the courts, it was because the 2nd-hand market indeed is very harmful for it. Read twice before replying, seriously.


Don't have to. Once is ample. I fully understand what you think you're saying. Where is the moral obligation to refrain from 2nd hand purchases? All forms of media (and most everything else at that) have a 2nd hand market. Why should games be any different? Honestly though, throwing morals into something like reselling is beyond argument. It doesn't even work for places where it *IS* relevant like religious topics.

it was because the 2nd-hand market indeed is very harmful for it.


Well, it looks like they convinced one person. The 2nd hand market fuels the 1st hand. If people know they're locked into a 6000 yen commitment for every game they buy, you think they're going to buy nearly as many games? Half even? Economics 101.

It's so obvious it was brought to courts, however. ; )


Do you want me to list the dumb shit that's been taken to the courts... and the stuff that should have been but hasn't?

The industry invented the cheap re-editions for them, didn't it?


In this day and age of global warming, I think it's quite clear who's got the fucked up morals in that scenario.
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Postby Recap » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:19 pm

Shit... I hit the edit button and not quote. Honest mistake.
-GP


I would have preferred to use "ethic" but then I learned English lexicon doesn't have that word as an adjective. Anyway, answering your question: "Because 'gamers' do know that buying 2nd-hand instead of new doesn't benefit AT ALL the people who created with effort your very game". Quite simple.
Last edited by Recap on Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby dcharlie » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:22 pm

It's so obvious it was brought to courts, however. ; )


so has ROM issues.

funniest thread in a while. Great contribution as ever, at least now we know the Rom kid who has piggy backed for free.

Anyways, as i said previously - stop feeding the troll to starve the craving for attention. Or just straight up banning. The last few responses are out and out venom + absolute ignorance.

I doubt a single person would miss him and there is an inherent laughability to someone who is so ardently hardcore on resolutions/scanlines yet has built his entire knowledge base and experience off Rom sets.
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Postby Recap » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:32 pm

Try harder, fella.

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Postby dcharlie » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:37 pm

your poor f5 key :(

your poor /rom folder :(

i am absolutely intrigued though how you can be so hardcore but then be a romkid. It's such a contradiction that it basically renders you a joke.
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Postby Recap » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:43 pm

Your fascination in myself is well known by all, yeah. I already suggested you to get your obsessions checked, didn't I.

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Postby RadiantSvgun » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:48 pm

sven666 wrote:
for a really simple example (tho im sure you can still miss it by a mile) take a look at CAVE, a company that thrives based on the limited supply and demand situation of their merchandise, from a profit point of view they are playing the market really well, their strategy would be impossible without the 2nd hand market.


Off topic, Cave makes me sick doing shit like that. But what are you gonna do?

The PCBs I own aren't difficult to store at all. Sure, you can't have them all laid out like some trophy room, but whatever. Can we get back on topic?
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Postby Imhotep » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:48 pm

@ Recap:

Well, it's hard to miss your presence when every third post is by you and off-topic.

Fact is: you spoil threads.


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