On gamengai, Gaijin Punch and videogame theory

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On gamengai, Gaijin Punch and videogame theory

Postby icycalm » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:54 pm

A while back I was taking part in a discussion here, and said something to the effect that "no one is interested in theory here". GP replied something along the lines of "prove it", at which point I had already bowed out of the thread, so I left him hanging there. My reply would anyway have been something ridiculously self-evident such as "prove what? there is no theory discussion here dude, is that not proof enough?", which would probably have been perceived as an insult (which it kind of is, after all), and led to even further grief, so like I said I just let the matter drop.

Which is why I lolled out loud when I saw GP's latest post in a certain recent Shmups.com thread:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 93#p987293

GaijinPunch wrote:Am I the only one here that doesn't need any philosophy with their games?


QED, I guess? If anyone here even knows what QED means...

Not that GP or anyone else here would ever be disposed to accepting the simple obvious fact that none of you care the slightest about thinking. But I made this thread because I am fascinated by the prospect of the absurd rationalizations and justifications you will attempt to concoct to avoid facing... the reality of yourselves, I guess.
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Postby icycalm » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:02 pm

Bonus theory excerpt, from my Kunio-kun review, just so you get a glimpse of what theory looks like:

http://culture.vg/reviews/videogame-art ... 86-ac.html

I wrote:So back to Renegade then, and the number one question that any critical essay on it must ask... and try to answer. Why did this game, and the genre it launched, become such a huge success? What did it have that all previous games in the genre (the side-view action genre) lacked?

To put it briefly, and not to mince words, the third dimension.

I blew your mind now, I know.

It really is as simple as that. Belt-scrolling games were the coolest action games in the late-'80s simply because, unlike all other previous games in the side-view action genre, these ones were in 3D — and you can take this fact and go quote it on any number of forums where 2D fans hang out, and rub their pimply, snot-nosed faces in it all day long (or anyway until they ban you lol).

"But if these games were really as cool as you say, why did they disappear?", would at this point be a reasonable question.

First of all, these game were indeed as cool as I say. Names like Double Dragon, Golden Axe, Final Fight, and Bare Knuckle are still household names for a reason, this reason being that they were awesome. Second of all, they have by no means disappeared — on the contrary, they are everywhere these days, in the form of any number of Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden sequels and imitators — it's just that people are too stupid to put two and two together and realize it.

But let's take it a step at a time. To start off, there's no question that, as far as brawling goes, fighting in a 3D space is shitloads more fun than fighting on a single plane. There's just no way to adequately simulate the scenes of your favorite martial arts movie on a single plane, and that's why all the good action games that remained purely 2D put such a strong emphasis on some type of either shooting or platforming, or in the best of cases (e.g. the Shinobis and their ilk), a combination of both. Guardian Heroes and Viewtiful Joe appear to be among the handful of exceptions to this rule, but they are not really, since Guardian Heroes still works in a three-dimensional space since it features three tracks of movement, which is to say THREE PLANES instead of one, and Viewtiful Joe bamboozles you into forgetting how restricted a single-plane beat 'em up is by throwing as many special powers, slow-mo zoom-ins and gimmicky variety segments at you as it can (whilst Guardian Heroes achieves the same sort of effect through leveling and stat customization, remember). The case really is hopeless for pure beat 'em ups on a single plane, and the ultimate proof of that is that they have completely disappeared — or, to put it in another, equally damning, perspective, they have evolved into one-on-one fighting games, where instead of exploring complexity IN SPACE — which they can't because there isn't much of it to be found on a single plane — they are exploring it in TIME — i.e. in motion, in the moveset, the fighting mechanics. Of course, ideally you'd want to explore and maximize both aspects in a single game, which is why Bayonetta would have wiped the floor with every side-view brawler, belt-scroll action game and one-on-one fighting game (whether 2D or 3D) in existence if only... its stage designs, pacing and boss fights didn't suck so hard. But that's another essay.

So what I'd like to address once and for all is the claim of some diehard 2D fans that STGs and FTGs are fundamentally more enjoyable than belt-scroll action games, since the latter have "disappeared" but not the former, whereas in fact the opposite is true. Once you realize that Devil May Cry is a "belt-scroll" action game in the exact same way that Ikaruga is a 2D shooting game even if it has 3D graphics, your eyes can finally open wide to the truth that belt-scroll action games have never been as popular, and as numerous and profitable, as they are today — while STGs are trickling in at a rate of a couple of games a year, and FTGs, despite their ubiquity, are a relatively stagnant genre, in terms of both innovation and market share, their sales grosses and dev budgets being nowhere near the level of modern "belt-scrollers". Whoever remains dubious of what I am saying only has to play through Xbox Ninja Gaiden, and if they still fail to see how it wipes the floor with every 2D belt-scroller ever made, I am sorry, but there's nothing that can be done about them. Hamsters too prefer running inside a wheel to any number of higher activities, so don't feel too bad about it — at least you are not alone.

It's essentially the same relationship that obtains between sprite-scaling games of the '80s and '90s and their 3D successors. Is OutRun 2 not a sequel to OutRun because its graphics are 3D? Is Quake not a first-person shooter because it ditched the sprite-scaling of Wolf 3D and Doom? And would you seriously prefer a 2D sequel to Pole Position over any number of modern racing games? Why is it so hard for so many "gamers" to acknowledge the utter superiority of three-dimensional games? — Because they are mentally and emotionally stunted, neckbearded, mouthbreathing retards, that's why.

A final analogy I will offer is this: the reason 2D STGs and FTGs are still being made whereas belt-scrollers have disappeared and morphed completely into 3D brawlers is the same reason that, though cars eventually replaced and phased out horse-drawn carriages, they will never completely replace motorcycles. For the function of the car and the motorcycle are too different for these two types of vehicles to merge into one, whereas that between cars and carriages is virtually identical, hence the latter's disappearance (or, more accurately, their morphing into the former). In other words, 2D STGs feel very different to 3D STGs (i.e. to stuff like Ace Combat, X-Wing and the like), just as 2D FTGs feel very different to 3D FTGs, and that's why all four of these categories of games are still going strong today. 2D brawlers, on the other hand, feel extremely similar to 3D brawlers — because they are not really 2D! that is to say, the graphics are but not the mechanics! — and hence why only the latter have survived.

Does the above mean that every 3D brawler is better than every 2D belt-scroller? No more than the fact that men are stronger than women means that there do not exist some women who are stronger than some men. It is indeed even possible to make a car so shitty and useless that a horse-drawn carriage would be superior to it, but when we are talking about theory we are trying to establish, not the exceptions, like the imbeciles, but the rules. And it is one's capacity to recognize and acknowledge the superiority of the rule over the exception that separates the intelligent, theoretical mind from the brutish and narrowsighted practical one.

And with this we have I believe exhausted the theoretical implications of Renegade's and Kunio-kun's phenomenal success, and I would like you to devote a few seconds of silence next time you load up Bayonetta or Metal Gear Rising to the memory of the game, and the people, who made possible the masterpiece that you are about to enjoy. Would these games have been possible if, according to the wishes of the 2D fans, the devs had not abandoned the 2D techniques? (or rather, not evolved and refined them into 3D?) I remember telling Recap one day that Zero Gunner 2 is one of the STGs where the 3D graphics were essential to the game's success because of the rampant rotation effects. He replied that the rotation could have been pulled off just as well if Psikyo had opted for 2D graphics instead. And it's true — to an extent. The game WOULD have worked with 2D graphics, of course — but certainly nowhere near as smoothly as it did in 3D. And lol at the thought of it as much as you want, but Bayonetta and Metal Gear Rising would also have worked as 2D belt-scrollers, just not with Game Maker for the engine or an arcade stick for the controls. You'd need a modern dual stick controller with a ton of buttons, and you'd need some serious technical wizardry and a shitload of sprite frames and scaling effects, but it could be done. Ask anyone who knows how this shit works and they'll agree. It's just that the effort would be immense, and the result far inferior to what you can get with 3D. And that's why no one does it. So try to finally understand that it was NOT the 3D games that killed your beloved 2D ones. All the genres that died, belt-scrollers included, had already been EXHAUSTED by the time developers began evolving them into 3D. I know because unlike all the poser losers who pretend to know what they are talking about in all the other sites (including the specialist ones), I was there and I played them. In the genre that concerns us here, for example, there was simply nowhere further to go from where the last belt-scrollers had left off; no more significant possibilities to explore — and so everyone, players and developers alike, simply moved on. Fighting games did NOT kill belt-scrollers, if anything they spurred on some really furious innovation in the belt-scrolling games, whose designers tried every idea under the sun in the final years, to keep the players from completely abandoning the genre in favor of the fighters — and they STILL failed to do it. Any innovation attained by the Taiwanese IGS in the aftermath of the genre's implosion is marginal at best, and it's still a matter of contention whether any of their games rival the pinnacles of the genre from the early-'90s, no matter what Macaw might try to tell you in the gamengai forums. I haven't played any IGS games yet, so I won't say anything more on the matter, but jesus fucking christ even an utter imbecile should be able to see that whatever innovation they may have made over the top Capcom brawlers is negligible compared to what would eventually be achieved BY SIMPLY CHANGING THE METHOD VIA WHICH THE GAME'S GRAPHICS ARE GENERATED. (And by the way, can the "graphics don't matter" retard brigade finally see how intimately connected the graphics are with the mechanics, to the extent that a simple change in the way graphics are rendered can help send the mechanical complexity of the game skyrocketing through the fuckin' roof?) Dragon's Crown's case, meanwhile, is even more hopeless than IGS's, since the damn thing isn't even a belt-scroller in the first place, it's a JRPG with a real-time battle system that just happens to have been modeled after belt-scrollers. In other words, twenty years after belt-scrollers died and still no one can find a way to significantly improve them without switching the graphics to 3D, and you are still complaining about the genre's "death" to us? Have you even PLAYED all the EXISTING belt-scrollers? So shut the fuck up already. Go 1CC every belt-scroller in existence, including all the console and home computer ones, and then come back here and tell me that you are not sick to fucking DEATH of them, and ready to take a look at what can be done in the same genre with three-dimensional graphics. DMC and Ninja Gaiden, Bayonetta and Metal Gear Rising, that's what. And that's why the Platinum dudes are not making belt-scrollers with Game Maker on the TIGSource forums. Because they aren't retards.


That's what theory looks like. And the reason GP doesn't need it is because he is an uneducated retard who neither reads nor thinks (which last conclusion is also the product of a theory, by the way; it's called "developmental psychology"). Have a good day.
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Re: On gamengai, Gaijin Punch and videogame theory

Postby SuperDeadite » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:10 pm

tl,dr
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Re: On gamengai, Gaijin Punch and videogame theory

Postby skykid » Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:35 am

Is it a review or an essay? If it's an 'excerpt' of 2000 words, you've well-breached the acceptable limits for a critical review in video games.

Gross verbosity is the enemy of any essay, and your points - some of which are worthwhile - would be cleaner and have more resonance if you learned to edit. Not thinking everything you write is sacred would be a good place to begin.

Anyway, let's look at this:

GaijinPunch wrote:Am I the only one here that doesn't need any philosophy with their games?


Why scoff?

The article extract you provided analyses a genre of video gaming by comparison. Comparison to previous works, future works, and other works in neighbouring genres. None of this is philosophical: it's exactly the same process all critics use to discuss the merit or failings of products in the public consciousness. Your appraisal is just overwritten and unnecessarily confusing.

"And by the way, can the "graphics don't matter" retard brigade finally see how intimately connected the graphics are with the mechanics, to the extent that a simple change in the way graphics are rendered can help send the mechanical complexity of the game skyrocketing through the fuckin' roof?"


They can also diminish the way the player receives feedback from performing actions in-game. By moving things into a full three-dimensional space, you don't necessarily enhance the effect the player receives from performing an input, but risk slackening it. That 2D animation and the measurement of pixel to pixel collision feels so markedly different to play is proof that there's a gulf of difference not in 'mechanical complexity', but how the player connects with those mechanics. This is why it's so easy to identify 2D games with laggy animation and/or poor collision detection, but far more difficult to pinpoint when the same problems arise in 3D.

Also, everyone knows that Ninja Gaiden and DMC are evolutions of the Scrolling beat-em-up for crying out loud. You haven't discovered anything. You're just failing to see, as the above paragraph explains, that playing strategy changes when you go from 2D spatial management into a virtual 3D field. 2D belt-scrollers require careful measurement of a small move set versus overwhelming odds, and if not played for a 1CC, become hopelessly deflating. 3D belt scrollers afford the player a lot more leeway (as do 3D games in general) to make up for the X factor of full 3D space: that which you can't see occurring beyond your field of vision. They also don't mind if you need to continue X amount of times to get to the end, since they're invariably around four hours in length and designed to ensure little Jimmy No-Skill can see the last boss same as everyone else. This is the reason why exceptions like Demon's Souls actually surprise the mainstream with a default difficulty factor.

Anyway, this is a discussion of game theory. I'm still wondering why you quoted GaijinPunch regarding gaming philosophy, and then posted an excerpt that contains none.

If you consider it to be philosophical theory, then you accept that all video game analyses, mainstream or amateur, are also philosophical theory, since your argument is based primarily on comparison of video gaming genres, the effect of spatial and mechanical changes, and past and present forms. This is basically what all general criticism does, whether explicitly noted or otherwise. Ergo, you either don't understand philosophy, or it's just completely stupid to apply it to video games.

Looking forward to your informed, polite, and well-lettered response.
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Postby icycalm » Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:39 am

You are an imbecile, piss off.
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Re: On gamengai, Gaijin Punch and videogame theory

Postby skykid » Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:46 am

And you can't spell, but I won't hold it against you.
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Postby icycalm » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:30 am

Everything I have ever seen you post is stupid. And I mean everything. I wouldn't know where to start with that post of yours.

"Is it a review or an essay?"

A review is a type of essay, imbecile.

Like I said, I wouldn't know where to start. Maybe someone like zinger could come here and do it like an exercise. Try to find the imbecility in every line of your post.
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Re: On gamengai, Gaijin Punch and videogame theory

Postby Shou » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:33 am

On icycalm and internet attention whores

You've made one key error in logic. You assumed that people here want to seriously discuss game theory with you.

I discuss this topic all day, everyday with top industry peers as part of my job as a game company exec. Conferences even pay me to speak about it.

What merit is there arguing with an attention whore screaming from his little corner of the internet?

Who are you in this world? What have you accomplished besides alienating most of your online gaming peers?
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Postby icycalm » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:35 am

I am the number 1 videogame and art theorist in the world.

You are a resentful little prick that no one knows about and no one ever will. And you have the rest of your life to swallow that fact down.

Happy swallowing.
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Re:

Postby Shou » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:43 am

icycalm wrote:I am the number 1 videogame and art theorist in the world.

You are a resentful little prick that no one knows about and no one ever will. And you have the rest of your life to swallow that fact down.

Happy swallowing.


This is a perfect example of your flawed thinking process and insignificant existence.

If you're so intelligent, you would figure out how this world works in order to effectively make your point and have people believe you.

Your feeble attempt at an insult isn't go to flinch anyone and if anything, shows you have more in common with the Gamefaqs ilk than any educated person.
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Postby icycalm » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:48 am

People aren't machines, aspie. There's no formula for making everyone "believe you". The only ones who matter are the intelligent ones, and every single one of those is already on my side. Just look at how superior zinger is compared to every one of the hateful little assholes who posted in the Shmups thread. One of him is worth more than 100,000 of your kind.
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Re: On gamengai, Gaijin Punch and videogame theory

Postby Shou » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:52 am

Organized religion across hundreds years of humanity will disagree with you.

Shout outs to the Vatican for keeping the dream alive.

What exactly is my kind? If there is more like me, I would like to hire them.
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Postby icycalm » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:55 am

Without organized religion we'd still be living in caves. There would be no civilization.

Meh, what's the point. Just go back to masturbating over your PCBs or something.
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Re:

Postby Shou » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:58 am

icycalm wrote:Meh, what's the point


Exactly, for a so called, self assumed #1 whatever, you're very slow to come to this conclusion.

Instead of you getting a rise out of others like you intended, I enjoyed getting it out of you.

Kthx, bye
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Re: On gamengai, Gaijin Punch and videogame theory

Postby Gaijin Punch » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:34 am

icycalm wrote:A while back I was taking part in a discussion here, and said something to the effect that "no one is interested in theory here".


I'm a different man from back then, and the site is most likely a different place because of it. I told Shou last night, literally, "I just don't have the wits or stress levels it takes to play the games I was playing 5 years ago". The single credit idea is a good one but to master an even moderate level shooting game, you have to devote at least as much time to it as an RPG, and substantially more of your soul. I simply cannot devote anything like that to a game these days.

I don't have to look at the link. I know which one it is. Years ago I'd love to talk about strategies and rip a game apart. The only game I play now is PSO2, b/c thinking in it's minimal, it's quite enjoyable without living the game when you're not playing (eg, forums) and I can pound single malt while I do it.

As such, I need no theory, skill, 1CC's, and definitely not philosophy with my games. Believe it or not, I might not even need 15khz w/ scanlines, although I've not quite sold my monitor.

Just look at how superior zinger is compared to every one


After how many seconds of agreeing with you does one become "superior"?
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Postby skykid » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:36 am

icycalm wrote:Everything I have ever seen you post is stupid. And I mean everything.


Shucks, I bet you say that to all the girls.

A review is a type of essay, imbecile.


This is the dumbest non-response to a perfectly valid question I've ever seen. The point is structuring of prose and formatting, something you have no semblance of because you don't understand grammar, and the reason you've never written a valid or readable review in your life.

Try to find the imbecility in every line of your post.


You mean attempt to debate subject matter you're passionate about? Zinger isn't as much of an idiot as you, you're forgetting, but that goes without saying: few are.

I'm sure Newton and Einstein never consulted their contemporaries with regard to theories and practice to further their knowledge and understanding in their fields of interest. Your problem is you think you have no contemporaries. And perhaps you don't: there's not a big enough room for your embarrassing level of sub-normal ignorance.

You are in-fact, the worst kind of idiot; one blindly unaware of their intellectual deficiencies.
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Re: Re:

Postby Gaijin Punch » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:46 am

You are in-fact, the worst kind of idiot; one blindly unaware of their intellectual deficiencies.


Before you devote too much time to the thread, remember that he's here to see if I can lose my composure. So I guess it's reassuring he's not read the majority of my other posts.
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Re: On gamengai, Gaijin Punch and videogame theory

Postby Macaw » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:46 am

Oh man 3D brawlers still have the most potential and I'm desperate for something to my taste to come out on the current generation. Stuff like Bayonetta, Lords of Shadow, God of War 3 and MG Revengeance are insane games and offer pretty much the most astounding looking visual set pieces and cinematic battles ever seen, but I really want something focused on street fighting and grappling, which seems to have drastically dropped in popularity compared to all the games with fantastical settings. The closest theres been recently is probably Max Anarchy, but I really want more games similar to the Spikeout series.

One of the greatest ones of the last decade was a PS2 game called Urban Reign that was made by the Tekken team. That shit is freakin crazy and has some of the most brutal, satisfying and difficult 3D brawling I've ever seen. I remember reviews tore the game up at the time because it was too hard and 'just a brawler', lol.
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Re: Re:

Postby skykid » Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:03 am

Gaijin Punch wrote:
You are in-fact, the worst kind of idiot; one blindly unaware of their intellectual deficiencies.


Before you devote too much time to the thread, remember that he's here to see if I can lose my composure.


And I'm here to see if I can make him lose his.

No locks or bans please, let's play this one out for the good of the universe.
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Postby icycalm » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:18 am

GP, there's no justification for deriding thinking. It is the only thing that separates us from the animals, and it has nothing to do with whether you still have time to 1CC shooters or not.

Macaw, Tropico 5 is coming out and it has Crysis-level graphics and 4-player co-op. You should come by the forum and play it with us when it hits.
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Postby icycalm » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:22 am

And there's a reason for this:

Macaw wrote:Oh man 3D brawlers still have the most potential and I'm desperate for something to my taste to come out on the current generation. Stuff like Bayonetta, Lords of Shadow, God of War 3 and MG Revengeance are insane games and offer pretty much the most astounding looking visual set pieces and cinematic battles ever seen, but I really want something focused on street fighting and grappling, which seems to have drastically dropped in popularity compared to all the games with fantastical settings. The closest theres been recently is probably Max Anarchy, but I really want more games similar to the Spikeout series.


Grappling and realistic melee action is not as fun as the wild anime-style fights that DMC and co. are trying to simulate. Real grappling is two dudes on the ground barely moving. For everyone other except the actual combatants, it's almost a yawnfest. And that is how it is with videogame players -- at least until full VR hits. So you'll have to put up with the fantasy-themed games getting bigger budgets, more sales and more shelf-space, I am afraid.
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Re: Re:

Postby Gaijin Punch » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:58 am

skykid wrote:No locks or bans please, let's play this one out for the good of the universe.


I only banned JAPJAC, and that's not b/c of stuff he posted, but he would go back and edit posts that made him look like a dip shit. I didn't want to fuck w/ the board settings, and he wasn't posting here anyway, so I just locked him out. Most of the hilarity still in tact.

GP, there's no justification for deriding thinking. It is the only thing that separates us from the animals, and it has nothing to do with whether you still have time to 1CC shooters or not


So where is the crime in "just playing" a game. Even tons of my music I can only listen to on a superficial level as I don't have the time to delve into it. Cliche', I know, but real life gets in the way of hobbies.
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Re: Re:

Postby skykid » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:07 am

Gaijin Punch wrote:
skykid wrote:No locks or bans please, let's play this one out for the good of the universe.


I only banned JAPJAC, and that's not b/c of stuff he posted, but he would go back and edit posts that made him look like a dip shit. I didn't want to fuck w/ the board settings, and he wasn't posting here anyway, so I just locked him out. Most of the hilarity still in tact.


Well I don't think Icy has enough lifespan to edit out all the idiocy he's posted on the internet, so no worries there.

"Deriding thinking" :whack:

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Postby icycalm » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:07 am

No one said there is a "crime" in "just playing games".

I am not the one who attacked you here.

You are the one who attacked the idea of thinking about games.

And I came here to put you in your place.

You can be an unthinking automaton, if you wish. In fact it is my understanding that that's precisely what most Texans, and indeed what most Americans are.

But that still does not excuse you posting in a thread about me and my game with such a dismissive tone about the act of thinking.

Now try and surprise me for once in your life by understanding what I am saying.

I am even putting it in the short, journalistic-like paragraphs that Skyretard prefers to read.
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skykid
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Re:

Postby skykid » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:28 am

icycalm wrote:I am even putting it in the short, journalistic-like paragraphs that Skyretard prefers to read.


For the benefit of your asinine readership, one would hope you would continue to do so. It would make your work marginally less illegible.

icycalm wrote:But that still does not excuse you posting in a thread about me and my game with such a dismissive tone about the act of thinking.


Actually this is a misinterpretation. What he and everyone else tends to do is marginalise people who talk shit, since listening to them is a waste of time, and educationally counter-productive. Nothing you write actually has value, since you're an uneducated schizophrenic. Your intellect does not precede you as much as its lack thereof, you're just yet to notice. This is the reason no-one's knocking at the door to employ your rhetoric.

You believe the intelligentsia is with you and you lead it. In actuality you're a fool wallowing in a small brigade of weak-minded sheep. Everyone looking in - those smart enough to not give your overinflated ego the time of day - are exercising vastly greater sense and intellect.

Do everyone a favour and go into hiding. Your Church will need you when the time comes for mass suicide.
Always outnumbered, never outgunned.


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